The day has come!

[mrwiseman]

16 colors at once, and I was exaggerating but it's true that it has no textures and a rendering system that produces few flat colors. Visit to Carbo in Grandia II or Guilin in Shenmue II, that's what I call colors. I know animation is great and it has high-poligon counts, but it shares one of the main problems of PS2 - no textures => sucky graphics; add an uncool rendering technique, and you get what I call bad graphics.

And how can the story be serious enough with a 4 year old kid wandering around in a world that looks like a huge kindergarten? I mean such an environment can never get epic | depressing | god-slaying | love-making serious, nor it can get realistic or adult-like. Kids will always be kids, they can't be adults, and if they are, they end up being bad characters, because they aren't acting accordingly to what they are.

I was hoping for the breathtaking epic, ultimate adventure of Link and Zelda, where they finally slay Ganondorf and get married, or something like that, but I got a "Chibi Link Plays Hero" game instead.

[melfice]

Mmmm... then you've lost a good game, Wiseman, i'd give KH another chance, believe me, i think it is worth.

Cell Shadding, as you say, is another rendering technique, but, then, you have games as "Fear effect", it is done with cell shadding (very poorly, IMO, because PSX can't handle all the poligons needed to make them look nice) or Jet Set Radio, i don't see it odd, but i find that Cell Shadding is an original graphic option for a game which is about skaters and graffittis. Imagine you use a normal goraud/phong shadding renderer in the "Zelda the Wind Waker" environment, THEN it would look horrid. Cell Shadding is the best option for that game, IMO

Textures aren't preciselly bad, IMO, all the game is full of them, and they add the details that the cellshadding can't add. For instance, Link's face is a texture, but it changes into a lot of expressions (am i right Xell?), or the very water of the sea, it is completely blue, with white zones, but it changes constantly, make effects, morphs... it is not precisely a simple modelization of the water.

Story: in every Zelda, you play with a Kid, i'd also like to see an adult Link, it would be perfect if Link grew up in WW, but as far as i know, it doesn't happen. So, the game turns around a kid (who must save again Zelda? is that Zelda bodyguards are as blind as princess peach's or what?) So, in that meaning, it won't have contents (I assume!) such as deep human relationships, or critical traitions, or the like. but it doesn't affect for it to have a nice and why not say it, an epic adventure.

Imagine the Xenosaga in Cell Shadding. Wouldn't it be just and plainly cool?

[Xellos]

Zelda's have never beent hat epic to begin with, it's always save Zelda andbeat Ganon, or in LA or MM there's a bit different goal, butit's all the same usuallly. You should never expect a Zelda game to have a deep plot like you'll get out of RPGs, as there neve rhas been htat great of a plot in Zelda. The most plot is in the beginning and in the instruction manuals. OoT has tons of plot compared to the rest of the game sbefore it, btu even then it has very little plot. WW has about 2x the plot of OoT, not to mention it seems like it's going to be better by the time I'm through w/it

On KH:

KH is probably my 3rd fave PS2 game, after GGXX and Xenosaga, so it's definetly worht the buy IMO. The cartoony look and Disney chars add to the atmosphere, it's fun to look back and remember things you once nejoed, and if I had hte time, I'd probably go back and watch a few of those movies next time I play KH.

[melfice]

Oh, oh, then, one of the most dangerous jobs in the world is being a Miyamoto Princess! [img]tongue.gif[/img] their bodyguards are nullities! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Daigotsu]

The only thing that bothered me about Kingdom Hearts was that you are forced to have Donald and Goofy in your party. Anyone would have been better than those two. At least there are some decent characters you can replace one of them with.

[Xellos]

Goofy's cool, but Donalds a fag

[mrwiseman]

IRT Xellos:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">When something looks kiddish it really doesn't affect gaemplay, IMO it's immature to think somethings not as good just because it's kiddish.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Then would it be immature to dislike characters with very big eyes, then say a game is not as cool because characters on it have big eyes? I just don't like the kiddish look because it's simple and colors are weird, it's a personal aesthetic preference and you can't say it's mature or immature.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">And WW is nowhere near kiddish looking in game, G2 looks more kiddish than this does</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Er... If I understood well, are you saying G2 looks more kiddish to ZWW??? This is just incredible. Are you talking about the same G2 I think? I just can't imagine how would it be possible for anyone to think that. G2 has a nice fantasy environment which turns darker with time and features lots alien-looking monsters near the end, as well as a few things I can't say because of spoilers, and very serious, critical situations in one of the best stories ever found in a videogame. Can you even compare ZWW to G2?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">And this new Zelda has the best gameplay I've ever seen out of any Zelda, and if you wana be childish and not give it a chance because it uses new and different graphics, then it's your loss.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>I might end up giving it a chance, but I'm more interested in serious, epic stories, and beautiful fantasy/medieval environments, not the Learn Math with Mickey Mouse type of stuff. Besides, I'm spending my ??? on the latest hardware to have the same game quality (gameplay, story, etc.) with the best graphics, and I don't consider these even half good.


IRT Melfice:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Mmmm... then you've lost a good game, Wiseman, i'd give KH another chance, believe me, i think it is worth.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe in the future, but not while I more attractive (to me) games to play in my que.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Imagine you use a normal goraud/phong shadding renderer in the "Zelda the Wind Waker" environment, THEN it would look horrid.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Imagine you used a wooonderful Phong shading in the Zelda game they showed to hype the GameCube. It'll laugh at this WW Zelda. BTW, it's funny how they show you the good stuff when you're about to buy the console, they they change it to crappy cartoons when you're getting the actual game.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Textures aren't preciselly bad, IMO, all the game is full of them</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Most textures I saw are as lame as PS2's, when I say "good textures" I mean Sonic Adventure 2; plus most things aren't textured, which kinda reminds me of the good old Virtua Racing days.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">it would be perfect if Link grew up in WW</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>I'd rather play with a 30 year old Link than an 8 year old looking one.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Imagine the Xenosaga in Cell Shadding. Wouldn't it be just and plainly cool?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>Aw man, I ate some pastries a short while ago, I'm going to puke them all over they keyboard at the thought of it. It'd destroy the good graphics and seriousness of Xenosaga, and turn it into some sort of Space Channel 5 rip-off starring Shion Uzuki, something Cartoon Network would be interested on buying.

[Xellos]

XS w/cel shaded=scary
Some games are meant for it some aren't

by the links, the WW one is one of the worse ones, but like I said, wait until you see the game in action, then it's awesome.

KH is an epic story, and it's pretty dark later on in the plot.

And again, WW's cel shading adds to the effect, and G2 does look more kiddish, excluding the anime portraits, the no mouths, the style of the graphics, and the colors look more kiddish than WW does when both are in action. Plus, WW has the best gameplay I've ever seen in an action/adventure game, and has a much better plot than OoT, it isn't just another save the princess kill Ganon plot, even though they're in it, unlike MM, it has more intricate ofa plot, and has more unexpected surprises

[melfice]

I'd say that G2 graphics are SD versions of "adult" characters, so, at the end, they are "serious", on the other hand, WW designs are somewhat kiddish, which doesn't mean they are bad. See for example South Park...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Imagine you used a wooonderful Phong shading in the Zelda game they showed to hype the GameCube. It'll laugh at this WW Zelda. BTW, it's funny how they show you the good stuff when you're about to buy the console, they they change it to crappy cartoons when you're getting the actual game.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>You got a point there, Nintendo should have mantained those graphics because IT WAS what they wanted to be the next Zelda, in that meaning, Nintendo can be accused of false advertising. If the game ended like this, it is because of Miyamoto's doing. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Most textures I saw are as lame as PS2's, when I say "good textures" I mean Sonic Adventure 2; plus most things aren't textured, which kinda reminds me of the good old Virtua Racing days.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE> Mmmm... as far as i remember, Virtua Racing had no textures at all... This at least have them, and hi-res ones... as far as i remember, NGC is a console which has support for texture compression, maybe i'm wrong, but it is not easy to have and handle a big texture like Link eyes... But you are right, SA2 textures are impressive and the shadding in SA2 is more similar to ZWW than what you think.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">I'd rather play with a 30 year old Link than an 8 year old looking one.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE> Then probably he'd be enjoying a great time with zelda instead of looking for adventures and swords [img]tongue.gif[/img] sorry for the off topic... :-) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Aw man, I ate some pastries a short while ago, I'm going to puke them all over they keyboard at the thought of it. It'd destroy the good graphics and seriousness of Xenosaga, and turn it into some sort of Space Channel 5 rip-off starring Shion Uzuki, something Cartoon Network would be interested on buying</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE> It was an idea, but i don't think it was that bad, after all, Xenosaga's plot seems an anime one. not obstant, the current design is indeed ... is there any word better than perfect?

[mrwiseman]

IRT Xellos:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">And again, WW's cel shading adds to the effect, and G2 does look more kiddish</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>I just can't imagine how would anyone think that. I know these are subjective matters, but I think saying G2 looks more kiddish than ZWW is like saying that the GameBoy sounds better than a DVD.

IRT Melfice:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">See for example South Park...</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>South Park may be for adults, but it definitely looks kiddish, and crappy (if that's professional animation then I'm Diego Vel?zquez).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Mmmm... as far as i remember, Virtua Racing had no textures at all... This at least have them, and hi-res ones... as far as i remember, NGC is a console which has support for texture compression, maybe i'm wrong, but it is not easy to have and handle a big texture like Link eyes... But you are right, SA2 textures are impressive and the shadding in SA2 is more similar to ZWW than what you think.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>GC, DC, and Xbox support texture compression, it's the PS2 the lame one that doesn't (plus it's the one with the least video memory... great, sony, great). But ZWW textures are few and often poor, except for the kid's eyes; it's far from reaching half of the GameCube's texturing potential (8 x multitexturing with dozens of megs of textures (uncompressed) and lots of mipmap LODs). Sonic Adventure 2 uses a decent shading model - Goraud shading, with static lighting, light maps, and a few dynamic lights that are realtime added to the statics. This is produces far better results than cel shading, and is much more cost effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">It was an idea, but i don't think it was that bad, after all, Xenosaga's plot seems an anime one.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>And it is anime looking. 3D anime, nicely shaded. What more can you ask for? IMO Xenosaga's graphics kick Z:WW's ass, but that's not saying much, I might add they are very good as well [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]biggrin.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/devil.gif[/img]